What If 750,000 Israelis Were Blockaded and Denied Food?

A shocking story. The UN has run out of food aid in Gaza:

The UN has no more food to distribute in the Gaza Strip, the head of relief efforts in the area has warned.

John Ging said handouts for 750,000 Gazans would have to be suspended until Saturday at the earliest, and called Gaza's economic situation "a disaster".

Israel earlier denied entry to a convoy carrying humanitarian supplies.

That's the BBC. Where is this piece in the Times? Page A10.

Says my tipster, a scholar at a prestige institution who cannot be public, "If the converse would happen it would be considered a reversion to Arab Nazism."

Comments

[Eurosabra]

The world stood silent when Jewish Jerusalem was cut off from food and water from December 1947 to July 1948, so I expect it would stand silent once again, as the Jews descended into famine and disease. Perhaps, once again, they would muster the armed force to break through and save themselves.

The problem is, Phil, you do not know the history. Gaza is potentially MUCH LESS cut off than Jerusalem ever was, because--for whatever reason--EGYPT is sealing the border, and could, unilaterally, provide a secure route for ANY form of aid it wished. The siege of Jerusalem was air-tight, Palestinian,s Jordanian, and some Egyptians around Hebron, and broken only by military intervention by the IDF.

You do not know the history, and you make ahistorical parallels as a result, which might cause those who know the history to regard you as a dangerous fantasist.

[Eva Smagacz]

Eurosabra,

I can see that you are really concerned with Phil' s comparison of Israeli Politics with Arab Nazism and the subject matter of people's suffering in Gaza has completely escaped you...
If you pass hungry person on the street, is your only reaction the thought: Jews suffered more, before you carry on walking?
If you pass victim of a car accident on the street, is your only reaction: Jews had worse injuries during bombing in Jerusalem, before you carry on walking?

Is the scale of human suffering in Gaza completely beyond your comprehension?, Or is it just not worth commenting on because it is just sand niggers suffering......? And do you REALLY recommend that Gazan Arabs should follow Jewish example and take up arms to break siege, as world is indifferent?

If Gaza was to take arms it would be Lebanon 2006 only ten times worse. It would be akin to liquidation of Warsaw Ghetto. The Israeli Government discussed destruction of Gaza last month, village by village, aparment block by apartment block.

[Eurosabra]

The Egyptians keep the border closed because of the bombings by Islamists in Taba, Nuweibeh, and Dahab. Israeli-Arabs and Egyptians in Egyptian Sinai died at the hands of Islamist terrorists, and Egypt--for some reason--does not want an open border between Sinai and Gaza. Phil asked "What if 750,000 Israelis were blockaded and denied food?" Well, the world did nothing when 100,000 were for 6 months. So they would wither and die, obviously. I doubt Israel would compel Egypt to close the border, because to do so would endanger the Camp David Treaty, at a minimum. Basically, you want Israel to let the UN feed a hostile power from Israeli territory so it can continue to wage total war against Israel. Bullshit. Let the UN truck everything from Egypt, there's nothing stopping them except the Egyptians. If Hamas wants food through Israel, let it stop the rockets.

[Colin Murray]

Eurosabra: ...because--for whatever reason--EGYPT is sealing the border, and could, unilaterally, provide a secure route for ANY form of aid it wished...

Let the UN truck everything from Egypt, there's nothing stopping them except the Egyptians.

*************************************
C.M.: ...for whatever reason!!!! ...nothing stopping them!!! LOL that is priceless. :) Here is a little excerpt from a 'PeaceWatch' article written by Michael Herzog, an IDF general visiting WINEP.

**********
General Herzog:
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/print.php?template=C05&CID=2376

Egyptian considerations.
Egypt moved to assume a more active role in the Israeli-Palestinian scene out of concern lest the void created by Israeli disengagement and the weakness of new Palestinian leadership be filled by destabilizing Islamist forces. Such a development could rebound on Egypt itself, which has its own share of Islamist challenges. Cairo also wanted to prove its indispensability to Israeli-Palestinian conflict management so as to fend off U.S. pressures to democratize. These considerations prompted Egypt to sponsor the Israeli-Palestinian summit at Sharm al-Shaykh and the Palestinian Authority (PA)-Hamas ceasefire in spring 2005, and to begin training Palestinian security forces.

*****
C.M.: Egyptian foreign policy isn't made in a vacuum, nor is it made by idiots. Their elite has another reason for cooperating with the siege of Gaza very politely not mentioned by General Herzog: bribe money. Why do you think that, in addition to the $5 billion (one must factor in the indirect handouts, like 'joint' defense research projects) dollars that we give to Israel every year, we give $2.1 billion to Egypt and another $660 million to Jordan? Because we are so nice that we have to give Israel's neighbors cash too, lest they be jealous? How magnanimous of us. I'm tearing up at our tender generosity while our own infrastructure is falling apart, our children are increasingly illiterate and innumerate, and our national debt ceiling has just been raised by $3 TRILLION dollars to satiate the greed of a band of corporate rogues who hold the economic stability of our nation hostage (too big to fail should mean to big to be allowed to exist in the first place). Seriously, do you think the rulers of Egypt, who don't give a rat's ass about their own people, are going to do right by Palestinians, whom they consider uncouth country bumpkins, when billions of dollars per year is dangled before their eyes? 'For whatever reason' indeed.

[jane arnold]

It is absurd to even think for one second that Israel would run out of food, they have stolen arab lands, grow a multitude of crops which they feed themselves with and make zillions out of, and we of conscience avoid buying them, like Carmel in England, we do what we can but the land of Israel will never suffer while it has the world's biggest power pushing billions of dollars their way, etctera.

[anon]

We bribe Egypt annually, which along with Israel; these two countries
get by far the most significant chunk of USA total annual foreign aid,
without even counting, in the case of Israel, lots of other side aid. Why? So Egypt stays pals with Israel as a practical matter--no other reason. Also, in the case of Israel, with virtually no strings attached
and Israel gets its money up front, then makes interest off that money, all paid for by Americans borrowing on credit with interest--from, e.g., China.

As Truman remarked, the Jews have no sense of proportion. This remark has been echoed by many, e.g., concerning the Jews who
participated in the Versailles Treaty negotiations as representatives or staffers.

I agree with CM & Eva Eurosabra is quick to point the ignorance and partiality finger. The pot calling the kettle black.

[Richard Witty]

What Zionists have and American Zionists sympathize with, is a desire to live safely and be accepted.

When that happens substantively, even incrementally, then aggressions will diminish.

IF the dissenting community stated its solidarity for a genuine just MUTUAL peace as strongly as its angers, then Israel would have a path to reconcile rather than only defend.

Otherwise the dissent looks like a proposal that might have gotten far enough to work with, but didn't, and won't. NOt all that different from the Palestinians rational claim that Israel's proposals have been real but not yet there.

Its hopeful that Hamas claims that it accepts Palestine at 67 borders, but no statement that it accepts Israel at 67 borders.

[Rowan Berkeley]

C'mon, if Egypt doesn't do what it's told, al CIA-duh will blow up a few dozen civilians in a Cairo market.

[Sword of Gideonthe point.]

Nobody gave a shit about the siege of jerusalem in 1948. Nor the siege of the Warsaw ghetto. Actually I take that back. Eva's family was outside cheering when the Germans burned it down and killed EVERYBODY in 1943. Last but not least the Egyptians could open the border on their side. Perhaps they could rethink their brilliant destruction of the green houses. Nah.

[Eurosabra]

Egypt is bribed because an Islamic or pan-Arab nationalist Egyptian government would HAVE to make war on Israel, probably resulting in 1970-73 levels of destruction, because of the Egyptian people's undying enmity to Israel, resulting (again) in a long-term closure of the Suez Canal, which the world economy cannot afford. Also the Islamist strikes on the Sinai have made Egypt wary for its own reasons, and people who claim israel should open the border and run the risks for moral reasons never make that claim versus Egypt. Low expectations of Arab leadership, you see.

You can't alienate ALL your neighbors with terrorism and then be dependent on their good-will. (A point Israel would do well to remember, but GOI has concluded that no good-will will be forthcoming, ever, regardless of Israeli conduct--Jordan and Egypt are exceptions, but people regard those leaderships as inauthentic and purchased, anyway.)

[contrarian]

Sword:

You are one of the least rational, most hysterically knee-jerk thinkers I've yet encountered. Your response to every piece of criticism of Israeli policy is to invoke the Holocaust and accuse the critic of simply wanting to kill Jews. Meanwhile, another child just died at an Israeli checkpoint...

[Sam]

Israel controls the Gaza-Egytian border. But this is besides the point. Why doesn't Israel let the food in? And how can any apologist for this ghastly act look in the mirror and see a human being?

[Richard Witty]

"You can't alienate ALL your neighbors with terrorism and then be dependent on their good-will. (A point Israel would do well to remember, but GOI has concluded that no good-will will be forthcoming, ever, regardless of Israeli conduct"

THE POINT!!!!

[Eurosabra]

Israel doesn't let the food in because that frees up resources for the terror war, and Hamas is waging total war against Israel. Let them use the smuggling tunnels to move food instead of rockets and explosives. Any Israeli aid to Gaza is a direct or indirect subsidy of terror (the pipes Israel sent over came back as rockets, while sewage filled the streets of Gaza) as long as the terror war continues. There are few things more stupid than enabling a total war against oneself. And no, Israel does not control the Egypt-Gaza border, since Hamas is able to breach the Egyptian border from time to time, and smuggling continues totally unabated.

Nice try at shaming, too. Won't work. Israel could live with a Hamas Gaza that ignored it, that waged a cold war, that continually vilified Israel in the press. What it can't live with is the effective terror that has made Sderot unliveable, and it refuses to subsidize that terror. Also, very often the convoys have been unable to pass because ROCKETS have come down on them.

This is all in line with Hamas's revolutionary strategy of "the worse, the better." Marighela would be proud.

[Rowan Berkeley]

"the pipes Israel sent over came back as rockets, while sewage filled the streets of Gaza" is a beautiful prefabricated propaganda meme, but it isn't true.

[LeaNder]

is your only reaction: Jews had

Eva, I encountered the examples or similar ones in writings of the famous Protestant Kant. Do you know how he dealt with it?

The person in need, was much less important than your duties, whatever they may be. The needy person essentially was only a distraction.

Thus I had quite a bit of problems with Kant, although it is equally true that the utter display of virtue often is accompanied by mendacity.

[anon]

""You can't alienate ALL your neighbors with terrorism and then be dependent on their good-will. (A point Israel would do well to remember, but GOI has concluded that no good-will will be forthcoming, ever, regardless of Israeli conduct"

THE POINT!!!!

Posted by: Richard Witty

The GOI has concluded that Uncle Sam and all his relatives actually constitute an anti-semitic sleeper cell with no history
of watching out for the Jews since Truman, with only a history
and treasury drain indicating we will continue sticking it to the Jews in favor of the Palestinians. That's why we can't have a more
balanced view going into the I-P peace negotiations, most of which concessions will be paid for by average Americans who are
concerned about having a roof over their heads, a job, and the on-going death and maiming of our soldiers in an area not crucial to keenest American security interests.

[Eurosabra]

Rowan: Are you still somewhat informally blacklisted from Hebrew instruction? I'm asking here because Elf and Lenin have both banned me.

[American]

Let's cut thru all the zionist mumbo jumbo shall we?

Everything Israel does, e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g
is for one single purpose.

To take over as much Palestine land as possible and to eject, starve or kill as many Palestines as possible with a creeping gneocide lite.

Starving the population because of 'rockets', bombing their main power station because of 'rockets', straffing their villages because of 'rockets', stalling the peace process because of 'rockets, checkpoints because of 'rockets',snipering children because of 'rockets' bulldozing homes becuase of 'rockets', destroying olive tree orchards because of 'rockets, blockaiding medical care and supplies because of rag tag homemade 'rockets' that miss their mark 99.9% of the time.

There is only one thing anyone needs to know about the zionist..everytime they open their mouths a lie will come out. They will never get out of Palestine and never give up their 'genocide for land' until someone makes them.

For the 10001th time...the Lukid Israelis and the zionist are a cult of psychos, unrestrained by conscience or morals or even common sense. Eventually someone(s) will put them down. It always happens that way and always will.

[Rowan Berkeley]

Re: "Rowan: Are you still somewhat informally blacklisted from Hebrew instruction? I'm asking here because Elf and Lenin have both banned me. Posted by: Eurosabra | November 14, 2008 at 12:18 PM"

blacklisted? moi? surely not. I must have been dreaming. however, I had a nasty period with a particular teacher, as you recall. i am sorry you have fallen out with elf & len.

[Eurosabra]

Happy, Phil? The Jews need to be "put down". Glad to know what you're providing a forum for.

[Eva Smagacz]

Emmanuel Kant was German, male and protestant - a proverbial cold fish. He dealt with concepts of universality etc, and needy person was a distraction.

Having said that, under his law of the first principle, if everybody did their duty, the needy person would be attended to by the person whose duty it was to help them.

It reminds me of concept of virtues in an antiquity: if all were virtuous, the society would be perfect, and the contentment (eudaimonia) of all would be maximised.

My argument with Eurosabra is that he appears to perceive his fellow Jews as society, and that leaves others..... as what?

[Eurosabra]

"Always happened that way" is an obvious reference to past genocides of the Jews, as there has NOT YET been a suppression of "Likud Israelis" or "Zionists"--at least not in Eretz Israel. Perhaps he is referring to the dissolution of Poland's post-war Jewish community in the name of anti-Zionism (from 50,000 to 5000 in a few years, following '68), or Czech-Jewish "cosmopolitanism" in '48. That is the most charitable interpretation.

[Eurosabra]

My once and future neighbors, who I (individually) would feed even as their abstract collective attempts to kill me as an abstract individual. But A)I have lived among and with Palestinians both in Israel and abroad far more than most Israelis and B)I am essentially powerless, as a Hadash voter and C)a mixed Jerusalem is within living memory of most of my relatives. Oh, and D)I'm stupid that way. "He who comes to kill you, kill him first" if interpreted rigidly means no starvation, no destruction of olive trees.

[Eva Smagacz]

Eurosabra,

My first husband has been putting me down every time he had a chance, and he especially liked to do it in public, I am very much alive, although widowed.

Being put down damages your self esteem, especially if you are convinced of your superiority.

[LeaNder]

My argument with Eurosabra is that he appears to perceive his fellow Jews as society, and that leaves others..... as what?

I am not a fan of Eurosabra, but he asked a question. The world was just as indifferent to Jewish suffering, he writes.

You answer with an hyper-emotional pressure, too emotional for my taste. Are you ready to go out of your ways for every one you meet that suffers? You should be ready for that, if you demand it of others.

[LeaNder]

My once and future neighbors, who I (individually) would feed even as their abstract collective attempts to kill me as an abstract individual. But A)I have lived among and with Palestinians both in Israel and abroad far more than most Israelis and B)I am essentially powerless, as a Hadash voter and C)a mixed Jerusalem is within living memory of most of my relatives. Oh, and D)I'm stupid that way. "He who comes to kill you, kill him first" if interpreted rigidly means no starvation, no destruction of olive trees.

I think I don't quite understand D)!

Interpreted rigidly it means a bullet? No need to destruct the houses and cut down their olive trees thereafter?

But how is that related to the first part and A) B) C)????

[Judy]

We already know Gazans will resist to the death. The question is: Will the people of Israel stand by and allow their government to actively starve the people of Gaza to death?

It will be interesting to see what all the players are made of.

[Colin Murray]

Eurosabra: Happy, Phil? The Jews need to be "put down". Glad to know what you're providing a forum for.

C.M.: American is the only one spewing forth that garbage. You don't seriously expect to have a discussion of these complex, delicate and highly emotional issues without attracting at least one troll. Someone like American whose hatred and anger has overwhelmed his reason and empathy is not going to 'propagate his kind' merely by virtue of being able to post on this forum. Don't make the mistake of assuming the rest of us are the same just because we disagree with you. Phil is doing fantastic work in hosting and guiding this forum that is vital to providing a foundation for a peaceful resolution of this problem. Change occurs one person at a time. It may be too little too late, only time will tell, but I raise my glass to the man for trying. The problem is real; discussion, even acrimonious, is much preferable to embarrassed or simmering silence, which just leads to people 'filling in the blanks' as best they can. Without adequate data, the blanks will mostly be filled erroneously.

The reality is that belief in the United States of the traditional Zionist narrative is eroding quickly. It should behoove you (Zionists) to make an effort to find common ground with Americans who are willing to listen. When the inevitable disgrace of the lobby comes, and Israel has hard choices to make, who do you think will stand with you? I, and those who think like me, will support a just solution allowing Jews to remain in the Holy Land. Failing that, there will NOT be a second Holocaust. Do you honestly think that, this time around, America won't open its doors to Jews in need? No matter how badly you use us (and again, when I say 'you' I mean Zionists in general, not you specifically), and I firmly believe it is out of fear and desperation, not malice, we will welcome you.

Jewish people make a unique and irreplaceable contribution to America; we would have a far lesser country and world without you. Imagine an America without that scientific and moral giant Einstein, who in addition to his well known achievements with Brownian motion and special and general relativity, helped nurture the first big crop of American physicists that have profoundly changed the world. The quality of my own life would be vastly less if it were otherwise. There are many lesser examples, but I will mention one closer to my heart. Jewish vision and labor were essential (as in necessary but not sufficient) to getting Hollywood off to its meteoric start. If that had not happened I doubt computer animation would exist because there would have been no mass market for its manually-drawn predecessor, and no incentive to improve productivity through computer-based tools. Hence there would be no graphics software (it's the same for movies and games, the latter are just constrained by the need to render in real time) for building games like the MMO's 'Lord of the Rings' and 'Age of Conan'. (I don't play MMO's anymore, alas no time.) The implementation of these writer's visions into 4-d interactive 'simulated realities' (I'm sure there is a better way to phrase that) is a monument to their creative visions that I am sure would shock and delight them if they were alive to see. The delicate weave of individual contributions to various fields of endeavor combine to push forward the boundary of the possible. In the same sense advances in electrical and materials engineering have enabled development of tools that have allowed oceanographers and meteorologists to make measurements, e.g., via ocean gliders and satellites, that have allowed much deeper understanding of our climate system. Jews have been a fundamental part of the broadening and deepening of this explosion of creativity that has, in the Baconian sense, contributed both to 'the relief of man's estate' and 'the giving of glory to God'. Why the frak would we not want you around? We just want the wars to stop.

Side note on games: Any gamers with an appreciation for anti-Bush-era political humor should check out Fallout 3, Bethesda Softworks' tour de force. Fair warning: it is an adult game and NOT suitable for children.

[Eurosabra]

D) means, according to standard Jewish religious law, you may only kill those who are actually coming to kill you when they are actually doing so. No killing of non-combatants, inactive or wounded combatants, no destruction of dwellings or agriculture, no starvation. With the development of the cell phone detonator, however, "coming to kill you" may perhaps be redefined as "being a member of Hamas in Gaza within reach of a cell phone." Gotta keep up with technology.

It's a fairly restrictive test because it assumes a context in which Jews have to justify communal self-defense in the eyes of one of the Gentile governments that permitted such. (Like pre-Hellenistic Persia or Germany at the time of the Sachsenspiegel.)

[Eurosabra]

Eva,

"Put down" in English also means to euthanize a dangerous or injured animal.

[Anonymous]

LeaNder, I understand you think Riccarda Wittone is a troll. She isn't. She is another unique creation from that very brilliant guy without whom Mondoweiss would be a far lesser place, full of guys who play MMO's but will never become one.

[Eurosabra]

C.M.: Most Jews were not too enamored of the conditions of life legislated for them 683-1917. Also remember the Turkish government deported tens of thousands in 1914-15 and might have liquidated the Yishuv had it not been busy slaughtering Armenians and causing famine in Lebanon. Every charter of every Islamist group contains an anti-Semitic rant with the genocidal (admittedly weak) "trees and rocks" hadith, and even the PLO only proposes to allow Jews resident before 1917 to remain. That leaves the DFLP, who poll about 2.5% in Palestinian elections, as the only party whose platform could allow the Jews to remain. Remember the years in Tunis, and the neo-Destourian trend in the PLO, and the declaration of Algiers: in general, the PLO takes after the FLN in its absolutism regarding restricting Palestinian citizenship for the children of a Palestinian Arab father.

On the flip side, I do not think Israel will be easily overwhelmed, nor does it need such extensive US support. However, you might want to read Amos Kenan's _Holocaust II_ for an understanding of "by the time you get here, we won't be here" and any other putative mass flight of Israeli Jews. The history of executions in the Syrian-occupied Golan in '73 and the continual non-return of Israeli POWs from Lebanon, except as corpses, are an unpleasant precedent.

[Eva Smagacz]

LeaNder,

I am not sure if composed versus hyper-emotional is really an issue when one is facing kids in Gaza hospital with no access to painkillers. You can buy paracetamol and asprin in Somalia and Mogadishu, you cannot in Gaza.

Gaza is, by the virtue of International Law, (agreed to prevent barbarities of first world war and before), a responsibility of Israel, not Egypt, not UN, not timbaktoo, just Israel.

We, as in West, look again in less than a century, with supreme indifference, just as we looked at Nazis, as these geneva conventions are trumpled upon. I, as an European bear responsibility for atrocities of twentieth century never to be repeated, and I see them repeated in front of my eyes.

My fear is that the Stanton steps are already being played out in Israel and Occupied territories:
Out of eight steps that separate sane society from genocidal one we already have what?
5 steps?6 steps?
We have step one: separation.
We have step two: symbolisation
We have step three: dehumanisation
I don't know if we have step four: organisation, but then that one is always secret.
We have step five: polarisation
We have step six: preparation

We are missing extermination and denial.

And then I terribly fear backlash against the Jews.... I was raised on stories of Warsaw Ghetto burning. I was implored by my grandmother to never, ever forget and never ever be indifferent, regardless of personal cost.

Hyper-emotional, maybe, but the kids are starving in Gaza on my watch and on my patch - this makes it personal.

And yes, as you ask, I help strangers, walk elderly ladies across the street, stop the car and offer the lifts to drifters, let homeless to sleep in my house....

[Rowan Berkeley]

We've already arrived, anyway, at the inevitability of a mixed, i.e., not hegemonically jewish, state, occupying all the land between the river and the sea. Any silly fake bantustans proclaimed within it will fail, unless ridiculously pumped up with supposed capital investment that is not in fact available, and phony token puppet leaders. It's obvious, isn't it?

[Eva Smagacz]

Silly fake bantustans will NOT fail if you could keep people in them indefinately, out of sight of victorious Occupiers. Hunger and disease will do the rest. It is the philosophy of concentration camps: concentration part of the name was used to describe cramming as many people as possible in the smallest area possible (reduced costs of personnel needed to keep them there).

[Eurosabra]

"Die Polen werden den Juden Auschwitz nie verzeihen?"

[Eva Smagacz]

???????

[Eurosabra]

"The Poles will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

A variation on the saying, "The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

Silly fake bantustans were exactly what the Fateh leadership wanted, Tunis with the money and the "fighters", plus Jews on the doorstep to be killed to trigger Israeli responses and distract from the corruption.

Hamas is much more frightening because of the insistence on a sovereign state and non-recognition of Israel, even as the UNRWA expects Israel to facilitate aid and development of Gaza. Feed us as we prepare to destroy you. Quixotic in the extreme.

[Eva Smagacz]

Fourteen members of my extended family died in Auschwitz, some in the hunger bunkers (Germans would starve people to death there). Never heard anybody blaming Jews for it - They were targeted for resistance and upraising against German occupation of Silesia.
I am sorry to say that Poles, collectively, do not carry the sense of guilt for what Germans did to Jews. Nor do they blame Jews for German expansionism eastwards, which started before Jews arrived into Poland in significant numbers.

-

You seem to be blaming Palestinians for conspiring to create apartheid THEMSELVES, and children in Gaza for potentially growing into terrorists, and you use this as justification for withholding food from civilian population.

You finish with the ironic comment that implies that people should see the logic and commonsense of the above approach.