How Anti-Iraq-War Jews Licensed Neoconservatism

Ever since the rise of the neocons, my liberal Democratic mother and I have had the same argument. I say, "They're Jews, and they're representing Jewish political aims."  She says, "No they're not. They're a bunch of rightwing nuts. You keep talking about the Jewish support for the Iraq war; every Jew I know was against it."

I've never had a very articulate answer for my mother. Till I read James Petras's wonderful piece on an AJC poll that makes her point--most American Jews opposed the Iraq war and oppose an attack on Iran...

One reason for the gap between the ‘progressive’ polling results and the actual pro-war behavior of the major American Jewish Organizations is found in several of the opinions not cited by progressive analysts but emphasized by the 52 leaders of the major communal organizations (Daily Alert, December 13, 2007). Over eighty percent (82%) of American Jews agree that ‘the goal of the Arabs is not the return of occupied territories but rather the destruction of Israel’. Only 12% of Jews disagree. And 55% to 37% do not believe Israel and its Arab neighbors will settle their differences and live in peace. On the key issue of a compromise on the key issue of Jerusalem, by 58% to 36% American Jews reject an Israeli compromise to insure a framework for permanent peace.
Given the high salience of being pro-Israel for the majority of American Jews and the fact that the source of their identity stems more from their loyalty to Israel than to the Talmud or religious myths and rituals, then it is clear that both the ‘progressive, majority of Jews and the reactionary minority who head up all the major American Jewish organizations have a fundamental point of agreement and convergence: Support and identity with Israel and its anti-Arab prejudices, its expansion and the dispossession of Palestine. [my emphasis] This overriding convergence allows the reactionary Presidents of the Major Jewish Organizations in America to speak for the Jewish community with virtually no opposition from the progressive majority either within or without their organizations. By raising the Israeli flag, repeating clichés about the ‘existential threat’ to Israel at each and every convenient moment, the majority of Jews have bowed their heads and acquiesced or, worst, subordinated their other ‘progressive’ opinions to actively backing the leaders ‘identity’ with Israel. Their franchise on being the recognized Jewish spokespeople intimidates and/or forces progressive Jews to publicly abide to the line that ‘Israel (sic) knows what is best for Israel’ and by extension for all American Jews who identify with Israel.

Petras has just about nailed it. The crazy rightwingers are actually speaking in the name of progressive Jews. These rightwingers aren't fringies. They are supported. They dominate the leadership of Jewish organizations and as I have noted here before, gained support for the Iraq war from an overwhelming majority of anti-Vietnam-war Jewish Democratic congressmen. The Jane Harman type. Which is to say that neoconservatism has been licensed by the larger Jewish community, because secretly or unconsciously that community feels that these guys are standing up for Israel. The neocons are the tough brother-in-law.

When will we disown him? I keep waiting for the Jewish soulsearching over what neocon Jewish ideas about Arabs have done to the Middle East, Jewish identity, and America. But progressive Jews won't lead that soulsearching until they acknowledge their own agency in the mess. Until they accept that Jerusalem doesn't belong to the Jews. 58% to 36% against dividing Jerusalem! My god. No wonder Camp David fell apart over that issue...

Comments

[David]

What percentage of Israeli Jews oppose dividing Jerusalem? My guess it's at least 58% or (probably) much higher. So if Israelis don't want it, it's not a case of evil American Jews. It's Israelis. That's bad news for Phil, because his neurotic exercises in self therapy aren't likely to impress people who actually live with Arabs

[john]

Maybe Phil the explanation of Jewry's attitude lies in the old adage that it is only possible to truly hate those whom one has wronged unjustifiably.

Applying the adage to Palestine and the overwhelming majority of its indigenous people, the Arabs, Jews hate the Arabs beause they know deep down that Jews have wronged the Arabs.

Hatred and scapegoating the Arabs,hanging onto Jerusalem etc are much easier substitutes than thinking about these matters. (Jews can be great thinkers when they have nothing at stake....)

[Ed.]

The following article will be helpful in comprehending why even "liberal" diaspora Jews can't bring themselves to admit their own complicity in the Iraq war: to do so would be to concede that their own religion (and hence, for those that identify themselves as an extension of their religion) their own very essence...is fascist.

'What is "Judeofascism"?'
http://www.judeofascism.com/2007/12/what-is-judeofascism.html

[David the First]

John wrote: "Maybe Phil the explanation of Jewry's attitude lies in the old adage that it is only possible to truly hate those whom one has wronged unjustifiably."

I too think this. I think it's a key to understanding the current psychological dynamic.

It's a pessimistic conclusion, because it implies that the community is stuck in a dynamic of self-reinforcing hatred -- a kind of vicious circle. And breaking out is going to require something that Jews have not always been particularly good at: taking responsibility for past actions and making some kind of atonement.

[cogit8]

Israel has gotten what it wished for: control of all Palestine from the Med. sea to the Jordan river. By ingeneously carving up the Arab areas into totally controlled shtetls, Israel has aborted any notion of a normal Palestinian Statehood. The Jews will try to "sell" a ridiculous version of statehood, but no one will buy it.

That the Jews have been able to conquer the land and neglect the welfare of it's captured citizens is heineous.

That the rest of the world watches this Orwellian nonsense and barely gives humanitarian assistance to human-beings held behind barbed-wire is testimony to modern Jew power.

Philip, I don't know about such events as WW1 and the so-called Protocols, but I know damn-well what I've witnessed since 911. The whole Jewish community is complicit to one extent or another in these actions. They've bought themselves a fine kettle of fish, and now it's starting to stink.

[NOMOREWAR_FORISRAEL]

ISRAEL AND TOP ZIONIST LEADERS ATTACK INTELLIGENCE (another excellent piece by James Petras):

http://tinyurl.com/2db3mq

[NOMOREWAR_FORISRAEL]

Even Michael Scheuer (who used to head up the Bin Laden unit for the CIA) basically endorsed Ron Paul in the following youtube video (of course the fifth columnist Israel first crowd doesn't like Ron Paul!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAehMPVFFE0

Michael Scheuer (former head of CIA Bin Laden unit) was on Bill Maher. He said:

" Israel is not worth an American life or an American dollar." and

"Our unqualified support of Israel has brought the US a great deal of pain and increasingly dead Americans, fighting wars that are not ours to fight." and

" America is fighting a war that does not exist -- our politicians have lied to us-it is not about hating freedom, womens' rights etc.---it is about our policies in the Middle East ." Bill Maher who is Jewish was clearly shaken.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Scheuer was shown in the following youtube as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7EB1FxENxQ

Additional at the following URL:

http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=39590

[NOMOREWAR_FORISRAEL]

Video that gets to the Israel question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

http://www.IRmep.org/jm.wmv

The Gorilla in the Room is US Support for Israel

http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2005/08/gorilla-in-room-is-us-support-for.html

SCANDAL: 9/11 Commissioners Bowed to Pressure to Suppress Main Motive for the 9/11 Attacks:

http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/09/reviews-of-without-precedent-inside.html

[NOMOREWAR_FORISRAEL]

Be sure to read Kevin MacDonald's 'Thinking about Neoconservatism' article and his 'Neoconservatism as a Jewish Movement' monograph which are both linked near the top of the following URL:

http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=32606

[Joachim Martillo]

Save Darfur gives liberal Jews the ability

*to fight genocide,
*to show their progressive credentials,
*yet to spew Islamophobic hatred against Muslim Americans as well as against foreign Muslims and
*yet incite the incineration of yet another Arab country.

I published a slightly different version of http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/12/harvard-supports-incinerating-arab.html in Sudan Vision, which is an English language Sudanese paper. It was given a full page.

I wanted the Sudanese to understand with what they are dealing, but I also wanted to demonstrate another point of dispute between me and Stephen Walt (from a seminar last year that Kishwer Falkner Baroness Magravine ran last year at the KSG).

We were discussing Neocons and democratization. I was arguing that today all local politics is global and all global politics is local.

Jewish Zionists are bringing their fanatic hatred of the native Palestinian population of Arabs here and making it part of local Academic and Pulitzer politics in the case of Samantha Power. But then the local politics of Power's academic whoredom and Islamophobic incitement at the Carr Center goes back to the Arab and Muslim world to complicate US international relations because of someone like me that has worked in the Arab and Muslim world or because of all the students and faculty at the KSG who have connections to the Arab and Muslim world.

Kishwer (nee Khan) is a member of the House of Lords. She emigrated from Pakistan to the UK in the 1970s and still has many ties in Pakistan.

[Richard Witty]

Phil,
Actually your mother is right. I'm glad she articulated the truth of the matter so definitively.

American Jews feel sympathy for their kindred, simple. Most of us have some family in Israel, some close, some distant.

And, most of us feel that we know a little about the experience of Israeli life, but not much. So, we bend to those who seem to know more clearly.

The BEST that American Jews can do, without exagerated harm from literally arm-chair analysis of another's life, is to firmly urge Israelis, American leaders, world leaders, anyone that can influence the situation for the better, towards a sincere and acted permanent desire for real peace.

So long as American progressive Jews continue to speak up for peace, they are NOT "part of the lobby", NOT acquiescent to neo-conservative agenda.

There are a million times that you or I share the perspective of an otherwise opponent, on a particular issue. Consider here.

I doubt VERY VERY much that you share the anti-semitic (in various flavors) sentiment often expressed, but you do share with them criticism of policies.

Does that make you a fascist, or one who acquiesces to fascist impulses?

[Richard Witty]

Phil,
Actually your mother is right. I'm glad she articulated the truth of the matter so definitively.

American Jews feel sympathy for their kindred, simple. Most of us have some family in Israel, some close, some distant.

And, most of us feel that we know a little about the experience of Israeli life, but not much. So, we bend to those who seem to know more clearly.

The BEST that American Jews can do, without exagerated harm from literally arm-chair analysis of another's life, is to firmly urge Israelis, American leaders, world leaders, anyone that can influence the situation for the better, towards a sincere and acted permanent desire for real peace.

So long as American progressive Jews continue to speak up for peace, they are NOT "part of the lobby", NOT acquiescent to neo-conservative agenda.

There are a million times that you or I share the perspective of an otherwise opponent, on a particular issue. Consider here.

I doubt VERY VERY much that you share the anti-semitic (in various flavors) sentiment often expressed, but you do share with them criticism of policies.

Does that make you a fascist, or one who acquiesces to fascist impulses?

[Anonymous the Late]

I'm starting to get aggravated by this habit of my fellow comentators of saying what I was about to say before I even have the opportunity... Maybe after David the Greater and David the Lesser I should start calling myself David the Late, humpf!

My small contribution to those trying to understand the jewish habit of never taking responsibility. A preemptive Solzhenitsyn damage control here, where the spicy bits about gas trucks and other devious methods are left untouched:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

But of course:

"The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, OBVIOUSLY [m.e.], as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and 'Soviet people'."

It is incredible how jews only morph into jews when they want to earn victimhood dividends or reinforce stereotypes of greatness. Otherwise they are always something else. The soviet genocide is treated as an example of intra-violence, but the european genocide, as we know, was a crime against innocent outsiders. The first is an internal matter for the comunist block to deal with, but the other is a sacred event.

"Jewry's attitude lies in the old adage that it is only possible to truly hate those whom one has wronged unjustifiably" Hence comes the hate against gentiles which forms the foundation of judaism. We are all palestinians now, if only because their plight is the only visible (for now) instance of what judaism has in store for all of us.

Now lets have another christmas without christ, courtesy of the jews. Oh no, courtesy of those atheists with strange polish and german sounding names. Damn poles, they are everywhere these days.

"Cogito Ergo Spam"
Eh Eh, me too!

[MM]

Witty schmooze: "There are a million times that you or I share the perspective of an otherwise opponent, on a particular issue. Consider here."

Who are those "otherwise opponents" Richard, us goyim?

Witty's about one post away from that eternal classic--"Phil, think your wife's family would hide you?"

Hang in there, Philip. These people don't have an ounce of your courage, morality, or insight. You are staring down the abyss while Witty just shovels more and more sand out the hole, all the better for his head to hide in...

[Joachim Martillo]

Deconstructing Witty's Intellectual Dishonesty, Ethnic Ashkenazi Racism, and Zionist Propaganda

From http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-talk-about-zionism-new-improved.html .

Thursday, April 12, 2007

How to talk about Zionism, a new improved guide

While Israeli law is generally phrased with the use of the terms Jew or Jewish people,(*) Zionism is almost wholly a production of ethnic Ashkenazim.(**) Polish or Russian Jews of Tatar/Turkic, Persian or Georgian ethnicity were not involved in the development of Zionist ideology and generally have not gotten along particularly well with ethnic Ashkenazim even if in recent times racist ethnic Ashkenazim have managed to co-opt, recruit and enmesh Jews of other ethnicities into Zionist crimes.

The point is important because Zionist propaganda reinterprets the Ashkenazi ethnic group as the pan-Judaic ethnonational group in order to make a ridiculous primordialist claim to Palestine just as German Nazi propaganda equated modern Germans to ancient Teutonic and Gothic tribes in order to claim that only pure Germans had a right to reside in German territories. Neither primordialist claim has a shred of truth, but it is worthwhile to remember that the basic ideas of both German Nazi and also Zionist primordialism developed together in the common fields of Central and Eastern European blood and soil nationalism. The poisonous weeds of German Nazism and Zionism cross fertilized each other.

Modern Germans probably have more Celtic, Slavic and Turkic ancestry than they have ancient Teutonic or ancient Gothic ancestry.

Ethnic Ashkenazim have no ancestral connection to Palestine. The culture, language and religion of Roman period Palestinian Galileans, Judeans and Idumeans were completely unlike those of modern ethnic Ashkenazim.

Progressives should not give any legitimacy to Zionist (really ethnic Ashkenazi Nazi) terminology by using the racist language of Zionism. In 1948 racist ethnic Ashkenazim stole Palestine with concommittant plundering and ethnic cleansing of the native Palestinian population. Today, racist ethnic Ashkenazim and racist Zionist colonizers manipulate the US political system to the detriment of the USA for the sake of Israel. These racists squander American wealth and lives to the benefit of their racist tribalism.

Avoiding the terms Jew, Jewish, Judaism etc. provides many benefits.

Ignorant Christians often believe that because the foregoing terms have some sort of etymological relationship to Judea, Jews have some sort of overriding right to claim Palestine. The idea is moronic because the use of the term Roman in Roman Catholic certainly does not give Roman Catholic Irish the right to steal Rome from the residents of Rome.

Furthermore, when people argue that all decent people should criticize, oppose and denounce racist Jews for what they do (stealing Palestine or supporting the theft of Palestine), many worry that such criticism comes too close to criticizing Jews for being Jews, which is a bad thing. When people argue that all decent people should criticize racist Ashkenazim and racist Zionist colonizers for what they do (stealing Palestine or supporting the theft of Palestine), there is no difference between such criticism and the criticism of German racists during the 30s and 40s for ethnic cleansing, invading Poland, and mass murdering. Most people consider criticism of German racists and German Nazis at that time period to have been a good thing. Likewise today criticizing ethnic Ashkenazi racists and Zionist colonizers is also a good thing. Everyone should do it (especially antiracist ethnic Ashkenazim, who can neutralize bogus accusations of anti-Semitism by taking the vanguard position in demanding the abolition of the State of Israel and the eradication of Zionism/ethnic Ashkenazi Nazism).

(*) In a similar fashion German Nazi law was usually phrased with the use of the terms Aryan or Aryan race. Modern Israeli Hebrew does not make a distinction between people or race, and the words used correspond best to German Volk.

(**) Likewise German Nazism was almost wholly a production of ethnic Germans and not every group that the German Nazis defined to be Aryans. Houston Stewart Chamberlain is one of those few non-Germans (actually half Germans) that made a fairly large contribution to German Nazi thinking. The Polish nationalist poet Mickiewicz made some similar and early contributions to Zionist thinking among ethnic Ashkenazim. Just as Chamberlain had some German ancestry, Mickiewicz had some ethnic Ashkenazi ancestry, but it is not hard to find cases of wholly non-German individuals that supported German Nazism as well as wholly non-Jewish people that support Zionism. During the 30s German Nazis that sympathized with Zionism and Zionists that sympathized with German Nazism were not uncommon.

[Oarwell]

The ice is always thin around here, and one must tread lightly.

First, can't we agree, generalizations are the sine qua non of racism?

That being said, I also vote with Phil's mom. Phil himself dabbles with dangerous generalizations, which make (sometimes) for awkward reading. Even his "my people" trope smacks of this. The ire of us paleos, and right-thinking antiwar lefties, is directed not at Jewish people, but at the very small cabal of neocons, the "Vulcans," who through misguided intent lied our country into the Iraq war. These people, some of whom are not Jewish, are simply traitors, anti-democratic and anti-American, and should be tried and convicted for their crimes.

Behind them, eager accomplices, were the apparatchiks of the MIC, looking always and only for profits, uncaring about humanity, probably with a hefty percentage of sociopaths in their ranks. Cheney is the prime example. They were more than happy to look the other way while the neocon cabal passed off cooked intelligence reports. These people were not predominantly Jewish, but merely rank-and-file no-goodniks, Babbitry writ large, willing to sell their country, the army, and American good will for lucre.

(to be continued)

[Oarwell]

(Part 2)

Allied with them were the senior editors and tv producers who also caved to corporate control, and failed to do honest reporting, failed to reveal what were obvious lies, and everywhere amplified those lies (e.g., NYT and Judith Miller). Some of them maybe were sympathetic to the neoconoid logic, some were simply lickspittles afraid for their kid's college tuition and mortgages on the 2nd home in the Hampton's. The usual story of human venality and cravenness.

When questions started to be asked, a rear-guard defensive action sprung reflexively into place, illustrated by the vehement denials that any such thing as a neocon existed. Remember? It seems like eons ago, but back in 2002-3, "neocon" was the movement that dared not speak its name. It was a code-language, whispered in hallways, a semiotics of innuendo.

Now everyone knows about their treachery. But focus on the traitors, and avoid generalizations: investigate and indict the traitors, shame the media abettors, scorn the MIC pigs (including the Telecoms--hooray Chris Dodd!), but don't engage in vile canards about an entire people. That will not help the cause of freedom, but only aid the forces of irrationality that wait always to bring nations to ruin.

(What's with Typepad that I have to break that into 2 parts?)

[anon]

You're entirely correct, Oarwell, in distinguishing between degrees of responsibility. But WAS it really corporate control that caused the Friedmans, Pollacks, Millers, etc., etc. to sell the war?

I don't think you've fully absorbed the content of the AJC survey. We can indeed talk about something called modern Jewishness, without engaging in "vile canards." We're all sufficiently adult here to distinguish between the individual and the ideology.

[MM]

I disagree with you, Oarwell.

One of Petras' points in his debate with Finkelstein that touches on this question is that the pro-Israel actors inside the U.S. gov and media -- from the "anti-war" to the neo-conservative -- seem to adhere to a credo that what is good for Israel is good for the U.S.

That may have some ethnic/tribal loyalty element, and is probably present in almost any immigrant group still politically active in the U.S.

But in Israel's case, its completely unique treatment -- and the extraordinarily preferential nature vis-a-vis the Palestinians -- is the sum of the efforts of both "anti-war" and hawkish elements in the Zionist support network to conflate US and Israeli interests.

[Joachim Martillo]

I am about as anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and critical of the organized Jewish community as one can get, but by my standards http://www.judeofascism.com/2007/12/what-is-judeofascism.html because of its core of anger crosses the line into Jew-baiting.

After all when Spencer, Pipes and Horowitz do their usual Islamophobic routines, they always include the disclaimer that not all Muslims are Islamofascists just a significant minority just as Chris More includes the disclaimer that not all Jews are Judeofascists just a signficant minority.

How do we distinguish? Isn't the logical conclusion from Moore's, Spencer's, Horowitz' or Pipes's type of analysis that we should just shoot them all?

Does the Talmud really differ significantly from the scripture of Christians and Muslims? I study all the scriptures, and they all use basically the same portfolio of ideas because they all come from the same spiritual font of Second Temple Judaism.

Take a look at http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/12/hanukkah-christmas-and-idu-l-adha.html

How did Judeofascism become so strong?

Why during the late 19th and early 20th century were practically all shomrot mitzvot Talmudic scholars so anti-Zionist if the Talmud is the source?

If Communist Judeofascism and Zionist Judeofascism are exactly the same phenomenon, were all the Communist Jews simply lying? Why was there such implacable hatred among Communist Jews for Zionist Jews?

If the phenomenon of Judeofascism is specifically Jewish, why has so much of Serb nationalist ideology since the 1820s looked so much like Zionist ideology from the 1880s afterward?

What is the relationship of Judeofascism to Fascism?

How do we stop Judeofascism in Moore's framework outside of shooting all the Jews?

The idea of deportation to Israel sounds like the Islamophobic calls for deportation of US Muslims, and why should Palestinians have to suffer under Judeofascists?

I understand why Chris Moore is angry. I am angry at Israeli Zionists and racist ethnic Ashkenazi Americans, but his approach does not get to the heart of the matter and will increase problems both for the USA and for the peoples of the ME.

[Joachim Martillo]

"Why during the late 19th and early 20th century were practically all shomrot mitzvot Talmudic scholars so anti-Zionist if the Talmud is the source?"

I meant shomrei mitzvot.

[Joachim Martillo]

Bronfman apparently intends to apply to non-Jews the same indoctrination and intimidation techniques that Jews apply to themselves: http://thenewjew.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/bronfman-big-idea-series-using-the-internet-to-fight-anti-semitism-anti-zionism-in-higher-education-by-anti-racist-blog/ .

[anon]

re Joachim's link to the Bronfman project: This is the site that is serving as the model for the campaign--
http://antiracistblog.blogspot.com/

As worldwide attention to Zionism grows, I predict a massive upsurge in this kind of publicity over "antisemitism". If you thought the old campaigns ("The New Antisemitism," "The New New Antisemitism," "The Latest New Antisemitism," etc.), you haven't seen anything yet.

It's a tired card, but it's the only one they have left.

[Joachim Martillo]

Zionism is probably the most explicitly murderous genocidal racist ideologies to come out of 19th century Eastern Europe.

I understand that Jews repeat over and over to themselves that Zionism is not racist until they believe it, but now Bronfman is going to attempt to pound this message in the goyishe kep (stupid gentile heads) until it sinks in no matter how much the facts contradict the claim.

If goyishe kep are so stupid, what should we call yiddishe kep?

[Joachim Martillo]

"Zionism is probably the most explicitly murderous genocidal racist ideologies to come out of 19th century Eastern Europe"

should have been

"Zionism is probably the most explicitly murderous genocidal racist ideology to come out of 19th century Eastern Europe."

[Ed.]

To Joachim RE critique of Judeofascism

Judaism is innately racialist. Most Jews, of course are not Talmudic scholars, but all Jews are aware that Judaism regards them as “the Chosen People.”

Given that, according to Judaism, “Choseness” is passed down through bloodlines, they might as well call themselves the “Chosen Race.”

It is the racial consciousness that unites the Judeofascists. Some Communist Jews may have professed to be opposed to Zionism due to its nationalist character (Communism was ostensibly universalistic) but how is it that in its early decades, the upper echelons of Communism were disproportionally Jewish to nearly the same extent that the upper echelons of Neoconservatism are disproportionately Jewish today? Are the Jews that much more intelligent than everybody else that they naturally rise to the top, or do they usher one another to the top out of racial consciousness once they are inside the gates? I propose the latter. It’s a sort of nesting pattern in which they surround themselves with like-minded Jewish bigots in order to reinforce the legitimacy of their horrendous behavior and justify their actions to one another...[cont]

[Ed.]

Communist Jews were racists, and behaved as such in their treatment of gentiles under their control. They probably hated Zionists for the same reason that today’s Left-wing Jewish networks (I’m talking about totalitarian-minded Leftist Jews like Rahm Emanuel, not earnest Jewish liberals) hate Neocons: they are “spilling the beans.” The innate racialism of Jewish networks, which runs counter to the ideals they profess to believe, puts the lie to the rest of their program as well. Most of them are master con artists.

How can Phil’s liberal mother (no offense Phil; I’m only using your mother because she is pertinent to this thread, probably a very decent women) be in such deep denial about Jewish support and enablement of US Middle East interventionism and the fascist nature of Israel? Her deep racial consciousness won’t allow her to see her people as capable of fascism, just as most parents are blind to the faults of their children. I suspect even most Israeli Jews don’t realize they are being fascist when they shoot innocent Palestinian children in the streets.

As to the comparison between Islamofascism and Judeofascism, I think the former is mislabeled because, in addition to lacking the other components of a fascist movement, Islam is not racialist. I prefer the phrase “Islamic totalitarianism” to identify the often coercive hold that Islamists have over their people.

You write: “Isn't the logical conclusion from Moore's, Spencer's, Horowitz' or Pipes's type of analysis that we should just shoot them all?”

I believe Richard Witty also called my type of analysis “fumigatory.” Criticism of Jewish movements are somehow the equivalent of a call for extermination. It’s a common fallback position amongst Jews. The Neocons use it all the time (see the Jewish critiques of Walt/Mearshiemer criticism of the Israeli lobby)

But identifying a problematic ethno-political movement doesn’t necessarily mean the advocacy of the extermination of its people, which is why I advocate clearly defining the borders of Israel, to be enforced by international troops, if necessary, and deportation of Judeofascists to Israel before it comes to that (as it so often has in the past.) I believe that Jews do indeed have a historical right to that patch of land, but that they are collectively incapable of controlling the grasping nature of many of their people, and hence are constantly pushing for more and more.

It is the responsibility of civilization to impose borders upon Israel, and yes, shoot those Jews that insist on stealing or taking by force more than that to which they are entitled. -- Chris Moore

[Chris]

"most American Jews opposed the Iraq war and oppose an attack on Iran..."

Weiss, your lying Jew agenda is beginning to show, most Jews were FOR the Iraq war until they noticed they were being scrutinized by a lot more Goyim than they felt comfortable with.

It's too late to lie about it now Weiss, wake up and smell the coming Pogrom.

[Earl P]

Only Israel benefits from these endless Middle East wars. Iraq is the beginning. As we commit war-crimes in Baghdad, the US gov't commits treason at home by opening mail, eliminating habeas corpus, using the judiciary to steal private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon and Wikipedia, conducting warrantless wiretaps and engaging in illegal wars on behalf of AIPAC's 'money-men'. Soon, another US false-flag operation will occur (sinking of an Aircraft Carrier by Mossad) and the US will invade Iran.. Then we'll invade Syria, then Saudi Arabia, then Lebanon (again) then ....
Final link (before Google Books bends to gov't demands and censors the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

[David Seaton]

Phil,
Jewish people both in America and Israel haven't dreamed up the mess they are in, they are trapped in a historical situation with all its contradictions. There is no way out, which is what makes it so tragic.

Quote: "Over eighty percent (82%) of American Jews agree that ‘the goal of the Arabs is not the return of occupied territories but rather the destruction of Israel’. Only 12% of Jews disagree. And 55% to 37% do not believe Israel and its Arab neighbors will settle their differences and live in peace." Unquote

American Jews are probably right on this. Peace IS probably impossible. Arabs are going to be in the Middle East forever and Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. "May our right hands lose their cunning if ever we forget you... Al Quds".

The United States is finally going to have to find a modus vivendi with Islam and it is not just the crazy, extremist Muslims that want Palestine returned to the Palestinians... They all do.

[Maya Norton]

Joachim,

I am not sure that I want to engage in this discussion, but I am interested in your elaboration on this point as I don't see it in the context of your previous argument.

You state:
"Bronfman apparently intends to apply to non-Jews the same indoctrination and intimidation techniques that Jews apply to themselves."

Please explain.

Maya Norton

The New Jew: Blogging Jewish Philanthropy

(I see your conversation is going quickly. If I don't answer right away, feel free to bring it over to my blog as well. It's relevant to what we're talking about right now and my readers would also be interested in your opinions.)

[David Seaton]

Phil,
Jewish people both in America and Israel haven't dreamed up the mess they are in, they are trapped in a historical situation with all its contradictions. There is no way out, which is what makes it so tragic.

Quote: "Over eighty percent (82%) of American Jews agree that ‘the goal of the Arabs is not the return of occupied territories but rather the destruction of Israel’. Only 12% of Jews disagree. And 55% to 37% do not believe Israel and its Arab neighbors will settle their differences and live in peace." Unquote

American Jews are probably right on this. Peace IS probably impossible. Arabs are going to be in the Middle East forever and Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. "May our right hands lose their cunning if ever we forget you... Al Quds".

The United States is finally going to have to find a modus vivendi with Islam and it is not just the crazy, extremist Muslims that want Palestine returned to the Palestinians... They all do.

[Joachim Martillo]

Ethnic Ashkenazim have absolutely no right whatsoever to Palestine. In either Occupied or Stolen Palestine ethnic Ashkenazim are murderous genocidal invaders and interlopers.

Since racist extremist Jewish Neocons have put regime change, massive dislocation and incineration for Arab populations on the agenda, it must be on the agenda for the Zionist invader population until the Israel Lobby knocks it off and until ethnic Ashkenazi Americans and ethnic Ashkenazim in general show some sort of contrition and remorse for the history of ethnic Ashkenazi genocidalism of the last century and make full restitution to the populations that ethnic Ashkenazim have so harmed.

(Obviously, the above is really an issue that victims of ethnic Ashkenazim must decide, not I.)

Ethnic Ashkenazim must confess to themselves and to anyone that cares that they constitute a far worse Taetervolk than German Christians ever did.

Chris Moore has some serious misconceptions about the orgin and legitimate claims of ethnic Ashkenazim.

As for Maya Norton's comment, I addressed it above after my original comment, but perhaps I was not clear enough.

The American Jewish community engages in continual self-indoctrination. Just attend some classes at the local JCC.

American Jews repeat the same falsehoods and misunderstandings to themselves until they believe them. Now they want to try the same techniques more forcefully to non-Jews because they are getting really worried about the rise of the American Muslim community.

Here are some relevant articles:

http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/10/origins-of-modern-jewry.html

http://www.palestine-solidarite.org/analyses.Joachim_Martillo.101007.htm (French translation of the preceding article. There are some minor differences -- mostly typos I corrected later. The translator added some important supporting documentation -- unfortunately in French.)

http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2005/07/zionazi-racial-science_03.html (I will have to reply to the Zionazi racial science that Entine is spewing at some point, but this
article is a good starting point.)

http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/07/updating-ajc-attacks.html

[A. Magnus]

Doesn't the Torah say that the granting of Canaan to the tribes of Israel was conditional upon their upholding of G-d's laws? Doesn't Deuteronomy say that if the Israelites do not keep the commandment then the land will vomit them out? Why doesn't anyone read their Torahs any more? And how can the Jews in Israel today believe that forcibly expelling the natives from Palestine is in any way upholding G-d's commandments? He who moves his neighbor's fence posts is cursed according to the Torah.

[Joachim Martillo]

According to the Covenant of Israel, the Israelite Kingdoms are dead and gone.

For Isaiah, Cyrus is the Messiah, and the remnant of Israel is the suffering servant that serves God out of love and with no thought of reward because absolute justice would have required the complete extirpation of am yisrael.

Nevertheless, the example of Joseph in Egypt indicates that the suffering servant may be the recipient of God's mercy.

The Maccabean Revolt, which is the basis of the modern celebration of Hanukkah, was a major challenge to the "surviving remnant" theology of Isaiah.

I discuss a lot of the associated issues in gory detail in http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/12/hanukkah-christmas-and-idu-l-adha.html .

[Maya Norton]

Well, I read your comment, Joachim, but I see no relevance in practical terms for what you are actually trying to say. Just accusations and rhetoric.

If you have actual examples for how the Bronfman contest is harmful to anyone in any way, go ahead and say it, but take it from the conceptual to the practical so that it has real meaning.

If I don't agree with your premise, I won't agree with your argument, but if you give me examples that help me better explain your point of view in direct relevance to what we are talking about, it would help me to better understand your perspective.

I mean this respectfully.

Maya Norton

[Maya Norton]

Well, I read your comment, Joachim, but I see no relevance in practical terms for what you are actually trying to say. Just accusations and rhetoric.

If you have actual examples for how the Bronfman contest is harmful to anyone in any way, go ahead and say it, but take it from the conceptual to the practical so that it has real meaning.

If I don't agree with your premise, I won't agree with your argument, but if you give me examples that help me better explain your point of view in direct relevance to what we are talking about, it would help me to better understand your perspective.

I mean this respectfully.

Maya Norton

[Stu]

"Jews" want the destruction of "Arabs" and "Arabs" want the destruction of "Jews". Sounds like to me that the leadership of both sides work for the same puppet masters.

[Klaus Bloemker, Frankfurt, Germany]

_____________________________________
"Israel knows what is best for Israel."
_____________________________________

That's right. Why should the Diaspora Jews or the gentiles know better what's in Israel's interest? I kind of dislike that Walt/Mearsheimer claim to argue not only in America's but also Israel's interest - as if they knew better what Israel's interest is or should be.

They should have rather said: We understand your interest to have an Israel from the Mediterranian to the Jordan valley - that makes for a nice map of Israel, not the awkward one of pre '67.

But: since that nice map would be illegitimate, we oppose it - AGAINST YOUR INTEREST. You Zionists were nuts to begin with to try to restore Israel, the Kingdom of David.

Why pretend to be on Israel's side when one isn't?

[Richard Witty]

In contrast, I believe that Zionism is a GREAT thing, a great effort.

It represents a liberation on the planet, from passive assimilated pandering semi-existence to the prospect of a full community life.

It took the monstrosity of WW2 to make the shift. The last straw. Never again is a rational and just approach.

Now is the time to complete the circle by a fair peace, which I see as inevitable.

[mike elliott]

Just finished Petras's book..POINT ON ACCURATE..the only thing I would add is that this Control over our nation began around the beginning of the 20th century!!! I have been studying this for over 15 years,and the fact is that this take over started WAY Back then.. with the likes of the original Movie moguls(Cohn,fox,Lamelle,Mayer,Warner,Zukor)..and politically,the likes of Bernard Baruch..Edwin Mandel house..stanley morganthau..paul warburg....Rothschilds..Schiffs... The technique was one of SLOW takeover of media...money...political parties....and school ciriculum....

[Edward Wilson]

Mike Elliott - If the Jews have so much control over our nation why don't they control the spy agencies?

[Anonymous]

"How do we stop Judeofascism in Moore's framework outside of shooting all the Jews?"

Some days ago monkey me was watching Bruce Almighty. Funny as hell it is. But whenever I watch it (and hundreds of other american movies) it strikes me the way in which crosses are always worn by people who will do some kind of wrong. In Bruce Almighty it's the latino gang chieftain (the one who gives birth to my little monkey cousin) who wears the cross. I have to wonder how is it that some people have simply no restraint. What kind of mental state is so prone to produce insult that it becomes impossible to watch even a simple comedy movie without an embedded message of hate. Then I am reminded that some forms of ideology were made not for turning the world into a better place, but for deception and power acquisition. Those ideologies eventually deceive and acquire power (that's their purpose, after all) but in doing so they inevitably turn the human journey into a zero sum game. That's the way it is.

If you want my strategy for americans to get out of this mess, I would give an immense "shut up" for the entire jewish community because they have utterly failed in reigning over their extremists in almost all sectors of human activity. They deserve to be treated as irresponsible little whinners, before they assume americans have become devoid of will and decide to impose them the bolshevik guide to a better world.

That's my monkey christmas wish: a ressounding shut up to organized judaism, just like the american intelligence community did to the zionists.

In a way I do not want a group of warmongering jews be substituted for another group of Witty-like "pseudo-peacenik" jews or whatever, because frankly, they all seem like adolescents to me. I would rather have american jews relinquish their obsession with discourse control and return the (stolen) right to inform and legislate to adult people. Let jews wake up from their illusion of power. Even if jews were the richer of the richer it is a simple fact of contemporary history that jews as a group are unable to take responsibility for their acts and therefore are unable to be leaders of free peoples.

[Damn antis pam]

KMac:

"Outside the Jewish Mainstream: Robert Weissberg and Philip Weiss"

http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/blog-Weissberg-Weiss.htm

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[Montag]

Actually, my understanding is that Bill Maher is of Irish Catholic ancestry. It's like the story of musical producer George M. Cohan. Although he was of Irish ancestry, he pronounced his name COHEN in order to blend in with the predominantly Jewish industry.

[Patrick Sullivan]

We are the Living Dead.

[WM]

I have mentioned this a while ago that the true "Israel Lobby" are not the reactionary right wing groups, but the liberal jews. In any group, there are always the right wing freaks, along with a liberal counterpart to balance them. It is only when pertaining to Israel, does the liberals becomes as freaky as their right wing nemesis, in effect becoming their enablers, allowing them to act as hawkish as they want with no counterbalance.

[Stu]

This left and right stuff, Zionist and Muslim, east and west, etc. is only for the consumption of the sheeple(the masses). It boils down to this the globalists and the sheeple. As long as the sheeple stay asleep and or confused the elite continue to win. Guess who is winning.

[Joachim Martillo]

The spam filter seems to block my posting from IE.

[The antispam filter]

"Guess who is winning"

The antispam filter, perhaps?

We're sorry, your comment has not been published because TypePad's antispam filter has flagged it as potential comment spam.

[Notorious]

Shut up Anonymous, you hateful little monkey.

[Observer]

>

Philip, a state is normally defined by the borders it holds. For the last 40 years, the eastern border held by the state of Israel (and better held than most borders in the region) has been the Jordan river. One can play at "dividing" Jerusalem any which way, in the end it's only a doll's tea party, or a paper concession to a bantustan that hasn't even come close to existence.

As for "Jerusalem not belonging to the Jews", the Arab point of view is that not a square centimeter of the Holy City "belongs" to the Jewish state just discussed. Again, no question of dividing it one way or the other, unless what you have in mind is a Jewish quarter (not a part of a Jewish state) as in the old days.

[Jon Entine]

I find Philip Weiss' criticism of my book, "Abraham's Children: Race, Identity and the DNA of the Chosen Peoeple" bizarre, as it mischaracterizes a book that he CLEARLY HAS NOT READ.

For example, he writes: "Nor is Professor MacDonald engaging in the sort of racial pseudoscience that Entine popularizes in Abraham's Children: Race, Identity, and the DNA of the Chosen People and that many Zionists use to justify the theft of Palestine from the native population."

How bizarre that Weiss would so mischaracterize "Abraham's Children" by suggesting .... what is he suggesting, as never says? That the book justifies the "theft of Palestine from the native population"? That's not at all what the book says, suggests, asserts or even hints at.

For all his posturing about careful thinking, he clearly has not read the book, as it says nothing of the sort. Not even close. It discusses the genetic histories of the various populations who consider themselves Jewish and also reports on the data of Middle Eastern populations, including those who call themselves Palestinians. In some cases, it presents evidence that takes the very opposite position that Weiss implies. For the record, the original Israelite population was a combination of native Canaanites and some arriving "foreigners." They are the core, along the male lineage, of today's Jews. Palestinians are of Middle Eastern and North African extraction, but based on the data are no more and may be less "native" along the male lineage to what is now Israel. As for autosomal DNA...the vast majority of our DNA, because of the diaspora, Jews are more of a hybrid of Semitic and European Jews while Palestinians are more of a hybrid of people from the Levant. That is, except for Oriental Jews, who are deeply rooted, more than either modern Ashkenazi or Palestinians, to ancient Israel. Who is more "native"? That's a geopolitical question, and not quite so "neat" as Mr. Weiss--he of the posturing and he who does not read or even have much passing knowledge about--implies.

Jon Entine, author of "Abraham's Children"
http://www.abrahamschildren.net

[Jesus]

to Joachim,

"Does the Talmud really differ significantly from the scripture of Christians and Muslims? I study all the scriptures, and they all use basically the same portfolio of ideas because they all come from the same spiritual font of Second Temple Judaism."

----You are such a LIAR!

the Talmud is certainly NOT the religion of the Bible including both testaments, and its teachings are thoroughly anti-gentile, anti-Christian, and anti-non Jew. It has particularly hateful things to say about Jesus Christ including "in hell boiling in hot excrement"

The same authors of the Talmud wrote the Kabbalah; a power hungry, ugly faced, horny pedophile group of rabbis

Here are just some of the "lovely" teachings of the Talmud (from http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html):

Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Gloats over Christ Dying Young

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

End quote from http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm (Lubavitch website) June 20, 2000.

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared on their website at http://www.noahide.com on June 20, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Kallah 51a."The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a bastard. Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child conceived during a woman's menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a bastard and a son of a niddah.

"They said, 'What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?' He replied, "I will prove it concerning him." He went to the lad's mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.

"He said to her, 'My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.' (eternal life). She said to him, 'Swear it to me.'

"Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, 'What is the status of your son?' She replied, 'When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.' Consequently the child was both a bastard and the son of a niddah.

"It was declared, '..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to Rabbi Akiba..."

In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who "uncovered his head" and was conceived in the filth of menstruation). The boy's adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Blessed Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).

"The Editio Princeps of the complete Code of Talmudic Law, Maimonides' Mishneh Torah -- replete not only with the most offensive precepts against all Gentiles but also with explicit attacks on Christianity and on Jesus (after whose name the author adds piously, 'May the name of the wicked perish')... --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21.

"The Talmud contains a few explicit references to Jesus...These references are certainly not complimentary...There seems little doubt that the account of the execution of Jesus on the eve of Passover does refer to the Christian Jesus...The passage in which Jesus' punishment in hell is described also seems to refer to the Christian Jesus. It is a piece of anti-Christian polemic dating from the post-70 CE period..." --Hyam Maccoby, Judaism on Trial, pp. 26-27.

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.

----the rest is too much to show here, just read for yourself, and buy his book that Amazon refuses to stock in its own warehouse, "Judaism Discovered"

[LD]

Zionism is far too insane to be taken seriously. The destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people was intrinsic to Zionism and racism/discrimination against Arabs has become institutionalized as a result.

When you factor in the affluence and economic prosperity of American Jewry and Western policy in the ME, then you have an entire target-people (Arabs and Muslims) being demonized.

Zionism is pure evil. As was Manifest Destiny. One people over another.

[alcoholic rehab]

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